So, about what's happening at Lemmasoft...

[Angra Mainyu]

[Auro-Cyanide]

Hmmm, I was wondering if the two were connected or if it was a coincidence. A lot is happening at the moment...

I'm pretty much still a newbie at game making and I'm only an average artist so far, and I suppose the only thing that drew me here was because I like to think about the potential of visual novels as a story telling medium and think it would be great to have a chance to see it grow. I liked the idea of being able to have some conversations that built up on concepts and conventions, things that I already discuss with Camille.

I don't think I really intend to leave LSF though. I honestly love the place, even with some of the recent drama. I haven't felt more at home anywhere. I'm hoping others will also continue to use both sites if this one continues and especially if the mandates go through at LSF. There is a lot of talent going around and it's always healthy for a community to share those experiences ^_^ There is no reason people can't be members on both sites in my opinion, if they end up co-existing. Don't want to burn bridges and all that.

I'm pretty hopeful for the future, and I'm honestly glad to see the changes being made. I think everything has been a good step forward after some troubling news. Good luck to everyone!

[DaFool]

LSF cannot be replaced because the creators of EVNs are the same people! Until the fandom really grows, new forums will only splinter the scene further.

Take the local animation industry. Companies grow and splinter all the time, but the artists are the same people. Every now and then you get fresh blood from some school, but it's still the same crowd of freelancers doing double duty at various locations.

The 'cool kids' of course can survive, even thrive without LSF because they have built up a following through deviantart or twitter. But even there it still feels like a cliquish circle-jerk (the very thing LSF has been accused of). Yes, I traced the followers of everyone in the EVN scene and it's mostly the same people! And how on earth can one discuss 'advancing the art' unless there were an open forum for discussion? With twitter you can only point to examples of who is doing things right.

Even the issue of advancement of the medium is arbitrary. Look beyond the production values of early games and you will see advanced, innovative concepts (Mikey was not distinguishing between "sprites+BG" vs "CG" way before TYPE-MOON recently discussing their technique with their latest project). And even the most praised games today, if you look closer, are just mimicking common JVN conventions, not surpassing it.

In the grand scheme of things, even with a forum such as this for 'advanced' creators, we're all still amateurs. You want 'real' professionals? Hans Zimmer composing for a VN? He only recently thought video games were no longer beneath him. It amuses me when I see comments on vndb from people wanting an EA-like entity to be making VNs.

What I fear the most is the erosion of diversity. Many games each made by individual creators will have a greater variety compared to a few games made by focus groups. (I for one will miss lordcloudx's brand of VNs since he's moving back to prose.) A game made by an individual or only a few people will always show more personality than a game that was peer-reviewed and peer-edited. (Another reason I'd rather not co-write but rather give full responsibility for each task to one person). With the push to quality what we're seeing is bigger games, which is good. But they would be more awesome if they were bigger games from the same individuals trying to push themselves, so there is no risk for dilution of concept.

Another analogy I derived from recent TYPE-MOON interviews and discussions -- that of VN making akin to cooking. What I see is people wanting a delicious dish. So they go look for the best ingredients from the most expensive supermarket in the Hamptons or Beverly Hills, made from the freshest ingredients. But if I were really trying to be the best damn cook I can be, I'd go to a wet market in a third world country, pick the vegetables with blemishes (the ones not export quality), and cook to my heart's content. I'd bet I'll end up with the more authentic dish. There's a reason why the best cuisine in Singapore or some Chinatown is situated in a run-down area -- that's where cooks can be free to concentrate on meal quality without having to be bothered by 'ambience'. That's how I see most (not all) efforts at focusing on the art first. While at the same time a lack of even minor customization just rubs off as lack of effort.

Sometimes I play devil's advocate a little too much, but all in all, I still support what you're trying to achieve.

[nubbycakes]

Off-topic: Hey, hey, hey... I have at least one more big (my biggest) VN release in store before moving back to prose as you said, DaFool (as per my subtle hint in my comment in your blog).

In any case, I concur with most of what you said but not entirely. I think that yes, the LSF cannot be replaced - but it doesn't necessarily have to be. As you said, creating new EVN community forums will only serve to splinter the scene even further - and I think this is actually a good thing. With more new communities forming and focusing on their specific brand, genre, style, whatever of EVN, there is a greater chance of developing specialization and expertise in their specific fields for each community. I'm likening this to how government agencies are formed in order to mete out certain specialized governmental objectives. The creation of new forums therefore, (and there are already quite a few specialized ones usually centered around a specific EVN or creator) can only stand to "up the ante," so to speak and allow more new and advanced creators to up their "A-game" in the midst of those who they consider to stand on equal footing with them. Within these forums, they can develop the types of games that they really want to make and strive for professionalism in their own ways.

Of course, as to LSF itself, I doubt that any structural changes will actually have any positive effect on the state of the forums as a whole unless the admin team also makes certain changes to their forum policing methods. I think it should simply strive to maintain the status quo without allowing itself and the quality of the posts made by its members to degrade any further.

In the long-run, the LSF should serve as a general launchpad for fledgling creators who are just trying out the medium before moving on to whichever community would best serve their long-term goals.

And yes, I am lordcloudx. I think this much should be obvious by now.

[sake-bento]

Honestly, I like LSF as a place for more casual game making. It's the sort of community I've been working hard to maintain there (although with a huge push in the direction of "Critique ALL the things!" I feel like I'm losing that battle a little). One of the reasons we are "losing" to JVNs isn't just the lack of resources or history. It's the lack of volume. For every great JVN that fans point out is superior to any EVN, you'll find a huge heap of terrible JVNs with incredibly low rankings on the VNDb. We need to encourage everyone to join in, and I worry that implementing too many requirements or standards will scare away newcomers who might think they're "not good enough." It feels like the difference between deviantART and ConceptArt. Any kid can join dA and get everyone to tell him how great his Naruto fanart is. Spend a few minutes in CA and you'll suddenly feel incompetent. dA is a great place for beginners, and I've seen plenty grow in skill until they're ready for the world of pros. Then they head over to CA and get more feedback from their peers. Some people stay on dA forever, and they like it that way. All they want is to post their sketches or photos and get a little recognition. I'm uncomfortable with the idea that we have to force every entry in the EVN world to suddenly rise up to impossible standards because "everyone should try to be better." I think anyone ambitious enough will find their own way, just like any other field.

While I don't have any illusions of being "advanced" when it comes to making visual novels, I do appreciate having another community to share my ideas and get feedback from peers who are aiming to make "better" visual novels without conforming to "it has to be like Japan!" standards.

[Auro-Cyanide]

[Angra Mainyu]

[Auro-Cyanide]